Talk:Staves (Origins)
Can someone double check the range of Staves on consoles? --Tierrie 21:13, December 16, 2009 (UTC) Merge this with the Article TBD Damage Calculation There is a bonus to staff damage based on the wielder's Spellpower, which (at mid to high levels) dominates the base weapon damages listed above. The base damage bonus is .21875 x Spellpower (on average; it varies randomly from .1875 to .25 x Spellpower). The Staff Focus talent increases this damage by 1/3. Staves with fire, ice, cold, lightning, or poison projectiles additionally increase this damage by 20%, 15%, 10%, 10%, or 15% respectively (as well as doing different types of damage, which are subject to other bonuses and resistances). Missing staves (possibly some not accessible to player?) Heaven's Wrath Staff of the Ephemeral Order Shaperate's Blessing --Voidmain 14:34, November 26, 2009 (UTC) I found Heaven's Wrath somewhere near end game as i had it when looking at my stuff after continue. --Ghostlogic 17:57, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Staff of Ephermeral Order : Shop in the Alienage ... You need to save elves and kill the magister lord for him to sell to you 18 gold 70 silver 0 bronze --Ghostlogic 23:21, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :Are you sure about that? I went into the shop and he had a unique staff for sale, (can't recall name but probably the same), and I hadn't done the Unrest quest yet. Problem is after my first conversation Alarith now tells me the store is closed, so I can't see the list and a save game is too far back for me to check. 19:45, December 25, 2009 (UTC) Shaperate's Blessing(staff) is not in game ... Was suppose to be one of the possible rewards for returning golem registry to shaperate but while dialog say he will give artifact he dosnt give it out --Ghostlogic 04:19, December 6, 2009 (UTC) http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Piece_of_Wood This item belongs in the list. It would be very useful if the chart also displayed the damage type of each staff, since some creatures are completely immune to certain damage types (such as Revenants immune to cold, which makes most of the best staves useless against them). I'm going to go ahead and add a column for it, and will add damage types as I determine them, please everyone chip in. (By the way, are "cold" and "ice" really two distinct damage types)? --Qwinn 00:54, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :I have a map of the damage type for each staves projectile. I will add them all in as part of Project Juggernaut, but the exact format is yet to be determined. And, to admit my own part in this, I completely overlooked/forgot that. - Pwr905 01:03, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :: Aaaah - I've already started adding them in as part of the Damage column, but would probably be nicer to have as its own column. Thing is, does the one Wintersbreath staff actually have a critical chance? I didn't think any staff could do critical hits. If that's an error, might be better to remove that and replace that column with Damage Type. If so, I'll do the work to move the ones I just entered to that column. --Qwinn 01:10, December 19, 2009 (UTC) ::: Actually, I should add, that would probably require creating a new template (stafftemplate?). That's beyond my wiki skills at the moment, but if anyone could be kind enough to do that, then I'll be happy to do some work filling it in. I'm thinking it should be identical to weapontemplate, but removing the columns "Critical Chance" and "Strength Modifier" (only filled in for Winter's Breath, for whatever reason, I'm guessing erroneously or so as not to break the format) and adding "Damage Type". --Qwinn 01:13, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :::: No idea why Winter's Breath had those stats. But, yeah, as far as I know, you hit it right on the head - it's a template thing. Until that change is made, I think the parenthetical damage types your doing work for now - it's better to have the information than not have it, as it were. Once the column is added, it shouldn't be too much of a headache to cut/paste them into the appropriate column. Thanks for the suggestion, and I encourage you to help out with the Juggernaut in any way . - Pwr905 01:22, December 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::: Oh. And there are two different damage types for staves called Cold and Ice, respectively. The difference being that Ice has a dmg multiplier of .15, while Cold has .10. However, it remains to be seen if every "cold" staff in the game doesn't map to a single type, and the other is unused. Needs more research heh - Pwr905 01:29, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::: Ah, cool then. Okay... what I'll do is just play, research and collect more information, and hopefully by the time I'm done the new template will have been created and set up and I can just edit the staves to their final state in one shot rather than having to go through and do it twice. I'll leave the ones I've done so far, of course... honestly, I only have the types for like 4 more at this point anyway, so its not like I could come close to finishing it off at this point anyway. --Qwinn 01:33, December 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::::Hmm I wanted to squeeze Staves in without having to create a new WeaponTemplate. But it looks like it has other attributes. I'll make the changes. --Tierrie 11:14, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Math doesn't make sense I'm not seeing how the equation works out for the Wintersbreath example. Here's what I'm thinking it should be. If my math is wrong, please explain it to me. Equation Damage = BaseDamage + Spellpower * 0.22 * StaffFocusAdjustment * DamageBonus Now, here are the numbers as I'm seeing them: Base Damage: Wintersbreath has a base damage of 6.4 Cold. Spellpower: We'll use 50 for this, as it's a nice even number. StaffFocusAdjustment: I'll do two equations, one for each. Damage Bonus: This is where I start losing it. Wintersbreath does Cold Damage (or Ice Damage). Ice has a 1.15 Multiplier, so Ice projectiles will do an extra 15% damage base. Adding in 30% Ice Damage Bonus should take that up to an extra 45%, so this number should be 1.45, correct? Now, assuming those numbers are right, the equation should look like this: With Staff Focus: Damage = 6.4 + 50 * 0.22 * 1.0 * 1.45 Next issue I have with the math: the person doing it randomly added Parentheses, and those Parentheses don't follow PEMDAS. The base equation has none, so it is ignored. There are no Exponents, so that is ignored. The next one is Multiplication, which is there. We therefore do all multiplication from left to right. So: Damage = 6.4 + (50*0.22)*1.0*1.45 Damage = 6.4+(11*1.0)*1.45 Damage = 6.4+(11*1.45) Damage = 6.4+15.95 Now that the Multiplication is out of the way, we move on. There's no Division, so we move to Addition. Damage = 22.35 Round that down, and that's 22 damage at 50 Spellpower. Now, the same equation with Staff Focus looks like this: Damage = 6.4 + 50 * 0.22 * 1.33 * 1.45 Damage = 27.6135 Rounded down, that's 27 points of damage. Now, I won't do the math here, but if we assume that the target has both Affliction Hex and Vulnerability Hex on, and that those have reduced their resistances down to -100%, then the damage would be doubled to 54 damage. And unless the laws of reality have changed in the last 5 minutes, 54 does not equal 61. Just saying. Am I going crazy here? Does this math make perfect sense according to computer rules, but not according to real-life math rules? Because it's confusing the hell out of me, and I'm supposed to be good with numbers.Swk3000 (talk) 20:30, June 8, 2010 (UTC) :I think the (possible) error in your calculations is that the elemental damage bonus supposedly affects the damage total (i.e. what is called "Damage" in the equation) and not only the DamageBonus. So the assumption is that it increases the items base damage value as well. :In your second example (with staff focus) that would mean: :Damage = 6.4 + 50 * 0.22 * 1.33 * 1.15 = 23.22 :Now multiply that by 1.3 (for +30% ice damage bonus) and you get 30.19 :And with -100% resistance we double that value for a total of 60.38 damage which when you take rounding differences into account corresponds to the calculation in the example on the article page. :You can easily verify that the basic formula is true by equipping a staff in game and looking at the damage displayed on the character screen. :Since the effect of +x% elemental damage gear unfortunately is not taken into account on the character screen, it can't be that easily verified. The same goes for negative resistance effects from hexes. You'd have to do extensive testing on enemies, or trust that the people who wrote the article gained the information through the toolset or other technical means and/or testing. --M.harmless (talk) 23:28, June 8, 2010 (UTC) :: :: So the elemental damage bonus is actually applied twice?! That seems kind of unfair. The low damage that Staves do compensates, but still...Swk3000 (talk) 04:38, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :::Well, I guess that depends, how you look at things. If you look at staff damage as whatever is the result of that strange formula, and accept that if the staff has an element type, all of the staff damage is turned into that kind of elemntal damage, then you really only apply it once. If it's true, it at least makes things easier to calculate on the fly, because all you need to do is look at the damage value of you character screen and add the percentages from +x% elemental gear. :::Now, why they didn't include the +x% elemental damage in the character screen damage calculation in the first place, and why there is no in-game-information about the elemental damage type of the staff (other than the colour of the damage numbers in combat), that I don't know. Maybe so that players would have something to write about on wiki discussion pages... --M.harmless (talk) 11:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :: I posted the original formula, but it got changed some months back. It wasn't exact, but close enough in my opinion. Spellpower / 4 + Projectile Damage * 1.33 (1.00 without Staff Focus). Projectile damage was the listed damage on the staff plus any modifiers such as +2 damage, etc and then you just add +30% to the projectile damage if it was fire, etc and you had the gear for the full +30%. It only mentioned -100% elemental debuffs in passing (didn't try to break them down). Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 23:31, June 8, 2010 (UTC) :::Did you get the necessary information from the toolset or did you deduce it from tests? What would interest me is, if the assumption that +x% elemental damage and +x% elemental resistance effects are applied to the damage number from the character screen is true. --M.harmless (talk) 11:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :::: In-game tests using Final Reason (Pure spellpower tests, no elemental effects), and Wintersbreath (Elemental testing). As far as I could tell the +30% is applied to what appears in the character sheet, I didn't find out you could actually stack vulnerability hex, etc until afterwards so I never tested it with debuff stacking or even the basic vulnerability hex. Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 12:52, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :::::Is this the correct equation... / 4) + Projectile Damage * 1.33 (1.00 without Staff Focus) :::::... or have you not figured that part out? 13:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC) ::::: :::::I assumed that the equation on the page was the correct one for determining Staff damage. I have no idea how to tell if it's the correct one or not.Swk3000 (talk) 13:38, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :::::: It seems to account for the damage quite well without being too confusing. I thought the changes made to the formula were exact calculations for damage, etc as I was going for simplicity more than actually breaking down everything that happens when it's calculated. You can jump in-game though and see that Spellpower / 4 + Staff Damage (might be better to say Staff Damage instead of projectile) * 1.33 works with any staff as far as what's displayed in the character sheet (within 1-2 points usually), so if there is a problem with the current formula it's safe to revert to using the formula I originally posted. Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 13:59, June 9, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: I'd advise against reverting, as the current formula seems to be highly accurate. I just did some quick testing with 3 different staffs with an unmodified Magic Attribute of 60 (ergo base Spellpower = 50) with Staff Focus Talent and no equipment other than the staff. These are the results: STAFF CSD CF Acolyte's Staff 19,5 19,51 Lightning Rod 27,3 27,32 Dragon's Call 28,1 28,17 CSD=character screen damage value CF=current formula from the article ::::::: As you can see, the current formula corresponds to the damage displayed in game almost exactly. I wasn't sure how the simplified formula is meant to work, more precisely, I didn't know if Staff Damage is just the base damage of the staff or if the elemental damage modifier is taken into account and whether or not it should be ::::::: Spellpower / 4 + Staff Damage * 1.33 ::::::: or rather ::::::: (Spellpower / 4 + Staff Damage) * 1.33 ::::::: But anyway I calculated it, the simplified formula was always a couple of points off, whereas the current formula is within a couple of fractions of the in-game value. --M.harmless (talk) 15:47, June 9, 2010 (UTC) Okay, that's great. At least we have it verified now. You can post your findings on the article, if you want. I would place the tests at the bottom of the page with a link to it from the top. Good work. 15:56, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :Thanks. I just updated the article with the intent of making things clearer. That was before I read you comment, so I did not work the examples in. I might do that later on though, but now it's time for some actual playing of the game instead of writing about it. --M.harmless (talk) 17:04, June 9, 2010 (UTC) : : :I finally figured out what was bothering me as far as PEMDAS goes. This equation: : :Damage = (6.4 + Spellpower * 0.22 * 1.33 * 1.15) * 1.3 * 2 appears to randomly add Parentheses, and it was throwing me off trying to figure out where they were coming from. Looking at the equation now, I've figured it out. The Parentheses is around the base damage equation, and the other two numbers outside are the Elemental Resistance multipiliers for having +30% Elemental Damage while attacking a target with -100% Elemental Resists. I don't know if that's how it was before, and I was just being obtuse, or if it was changed after this discussion started to better reflect that, but it makes sense now.Swk3000 (talk) 19:14, June 9, 2010 (UTC) ::It was basically the same before, but maybe - hopefully - it is a little clearer now with the additional elaboration. --M.harmless (talk) 00:54, June 10, 2010 (UTC) Can you put poison on a staff? Can you put poison on a staff to effect the standard staff projectile? I've searched for the answer everywhere but still can't find anything.--Djdelirius (talk) 05:16, July 8, 2010 (UTC) :No. Mictlantecuhtli (talk) 17:46, July 8, 2010 (UTC) Armor reduction for staves not necessary? On Combat_Mechanics#ArmorDmgReduction it says that armor is useless against staves damage. Am I right that this is not correct, since each staff has an "Armor Penetration"-value listed on item description? Maybe just elemental-staves are armor-immune and just physical staves have to use AP to hit? --Deep Thought 42 (talk) 06:28, October 3, 2010 (UTC) :The Combat Mechanics page is correct. Like it says, the staves (including physical ones) have special case damage calculation that bypasses armor/AP (it's calculated in core_h.nss).-- (talk) 08:51, October 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for your helpfull reply! ::So is it right to say: physical staves are generalized the best, since they hit with full damage and there is no value that could possible lower the physical-staff-damage dealt, while elemental staves have to deal with the target's elemental-resistances first? (Of course, with -XX% elemental-resistance the elemenal staves would deal more damage than physical ones...) --Deep Thought 42 (talk) 11:05, October 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Elemental ones are usually better. They get an extra damage multiplier (e.g. 1.2 for cold, 1.15 for fire), you have the +elemental damage items (capped at +30%) and the hex spells. It's very easy to do 2x the damage with elemental staves. Just switch between cold/fire (the best staves are cold anyway) and you should have covered pretty much everything.--84.150.252.219 ::::Thanks for the hint! One last question regarding the +elemental damage items: Let's assume I would like to use Enchanter's Staff with cold damage together with Black Hand Gauntlets. This would lead to +5% cold damage, +5% electricity damage, +5% fire damage & +20% spirit damage. Since Enchanter's Staff damage-type is cold, the only +X% elemental-damage-bonus would the +5% cold bonus from the staff: everything else would be of no use for this mage, wouldn't it? --Deep Thought 42 (talk) 13:20, October 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::Yes - unless you use some spells that deal those other damage types.--84.150.252.219 Damage numberss don't match game The damage ranking of these staves doesn't match the in-game info. Wintersbreath & Magister Lord are each 4.80 base damage, and Magister Lord says (cold) but it gives a 10% to fire/spirit, not cold. +30% Cold damage Is it possible to achive? How? Winter's Breath + ???-- (talk) 21:25, January 29, 2011 (UTC)batat :Ashen Gloves gives +20%, putting you over the limit by 5%. (talk) 06:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC) missing info no value = physical damage 125 = fire damage 126 = cold damage 128 = electricity damage 129 = nature damage what about spirit damage? JH EP (talk) 01:21, November 21, 2013 (UTC) Elemental Damage Runes Simply put, do they affect staff damage? I assume not, since I only ever see damage colors of the staff's element when attacking. Eternalspirit (talk) 06:23, April 30, 2015 (UTC) Runes It seems that none of the staves have rune slots. Why not simply remove the rune columns from all of those tables & simply leave a note near the top of the page detailing that no staves have rune slots? It would allow the Dragon Age: Origins table to be thin enough to avoid horizontal scroll on some browsers, & if there is no objection I’ll do it myself.